Episode 4: Founding Partners
How is having a partner to help bring your creative business idea to life like a business marriage? And who is Glenn referring to when praising his selling skills, saying, “He could talk a hungry dog off a meat truck.” Find out this and more including why having a commitment to a shared vision, complimentary skill sets, and trust are essential elements to look for in a founding partner.
Transcript
Glenn Suart 0:00
I think if you’re a person out there thinking about starting a business, you have a vision, find a partner. And you know, you might take a while to find one, but they’ve got to share the passion, the interest, and the vision.
Doug Ross 0:23
Welcome to Conversations on startups, a podcast brought to you by Douglas Ross, author of the book Spark Click Go How to bring your creative business idea to life, and Glenn Suart of Today’s Great Idea, a radio series featuring over 300 origin stories of businesses, brands and inventions that have changed the culture. Welcome to today’s conversation.
Glenn Suart 0:47
Our topic today is founding partners, and questions like, Well, how do you find a partner? Do I need a partner? What should I look for in a partner? Make sense, Doug?
Doug Ross 0:58
Yeah, absolutely critical topic. I like to start with thinking about what this even means partners when you’re getting into a business. You and I have a good friend, classmate, Adam Lorant. And when I was putting together my book, I talked to Adam on this topic. And one of the things he said, that sort of stuck, stayed in my mind about this partnership. In my mind, he used the phrase, it’s like getting married, it’s business marriage. And I thought, wow, that’s really an interesting way to think about it, you are looking for somebody, you’re getting into a business together and as you go along, you’re going to succeed together, you’re going to come against up against challenges together, there’s a lot of things that are going to happen to you and and your partner or multiple partners in that business. So it is kind of like a marriage. And as he said, to somebody that you don’t really know. But I don’t know, is that necessarily the truth that you don’t really know them? I think it speaks to your question, Glenn about how do you find a partner to go into business with?
Glenn Suart 2:15
Well, like anything else, you probably should date first for a while, right? So, you know, when I, when I do projects with people, I always tell them like I’m in it for because I believe in long term projects, I don’t want to just have one night stands or do a project just for a short term thing. They also have to you have to see them in action. And you have to see yourself in action, doing something small, it doesn’t have to be a big thing, but before you get married, you’ll want to date for a while and figure out whether the person or people you’re getting into bed with essentially are the right kind of people, do they take action? Are they honorable? Are they lazy? Things that you have to ask yourself a whole bunch of questions. They can say a million things. The question is – you want to see them when they’re really doing something. And that makes a difference.
Doug Ross 3:02
Yeah, I agree. So how do you do that without actually forming the business?
Glenn Suart 3:07
That is a challenge. For example, I’m partners in Canada on a cooler company, and I have some content. Advertising Today’s Great Idea which my now partner Sean herd. And then he called me and we had a conversation. And we talked about a project that he wanted to do. And I got a sense of who he was and what he was about. And in that short little time, I basically said no, this is not a good project. And he’s a smart guy. And he said, thanks. And he said I won’t do it and it was for the right reasons. But he respected the fact that I said that. And so he came back to me a year later with another idea, and which is now why we’re in business together. And I started off by doing a business plan for him. But he realized he couldn’t do the business without me or a good team around him. And so that’s how we ended up being partners. But I saw him in action and how he dealt with me and other people when we were doing that initial business plan. So that was a way of getting a sense of the person. Because, you know, I’ve always thought that I want to work with great people. And Sean has a great skill set that’s completely different than mine. He’s really good at sales, he might have a different political view than I have as well. He’s got a decency and an honor ability about him, which is what I was looking for in a partner. And that’s valuable.
Bridget 4:29
You’re listening to conversations on startups with Doug and Glenn, thanks for joining us. Let’s get back to the show.
Glenn Suart 4:37
What about you, have you had a chance to figure out a partner to work with in the past?
Doug Ross 4:42
Well, I’ve had a similar experience with the company that I’m embedded with right now. I wasn’t one of the founders but I came to them as a as an advisor sort of role and from there, we got to know each other. Interesting we’ve never met each other physically – this is today’s world – I only know them through Zoom. But we started small, I think maybe is a commonality to the experience that you just described and there we’re not really any great expectations. But it was a chance to get to know each other, and per your point to see each other in some difficult situations. So I’ll give you a specific example. We were applying for grant money. This was US government grant money, and it had our name written all over it. This is perfect. This is exactly the technology that we want to develop and bring to market. And just as we got our application in, or were ready to put it in, literally the day before, they closed the door on the grant. So this was an opportunity to see one another and how we reacted because it was a lot of work that everybody had put into this. And it was a very disappointing outcome. But I did learn through that that my now – I wouldn’t quite call them partners but I’m very embedded with them – I got to see how they handle disappointment. Did they go off fly off the handle? Did they sort of blame everybody about themselves? Or did they say well, hey guys you know what, that is disappointing, let’s move on, we still need funding – what did we learn from this experience? And how can we apply that going forward?
Glenn Suart 6:25
Excellent. That’s really interesting. Like anything else, you date because you want to understand if this person is or people are compatible with you, and you go on good dates, and you go on bad dates, you realize what you like, and what you don’t like. And that helps you get closer to getting that business marriage of the founding partners. In another situation, many years ago, I was in a small startup that raised a lot of money. I was not one of the founding partners, but I was one of the senior people. And this business didn’t go anywhere. And finally they wasted 10s of millions of dollars and closed up shop. But one of the things that I got out of it was, I could, I recognized what there are certain good things and bad things you can see in some people in this particular business. This guy was really good at selling, he could talk a hungry dog off on a meat truck. He was that kind of guy. But the thing is, and he had a vision, he was very powerful. And I helped them with that it was really good. But I also saw a negative in him in that he spent a lot of money in terms in the wrong spots, because he had too much of it. And so it’s a little thing. And maybe it’s crazy. But I always think about who’s picking out especially when you’re starting up small, who’s picking up the coffee cups, when you’ve had a business meetings? Do you have a secretary or assistant come in and do that? Okay, well, you know what, if you do that in a small startup, you’ve got a problem because you’re wasting money on the wrong thing. I saw a negative quality in the sky because of that, because he would do that he was spending money in the wrong areas, that tells me I don’t want to partner with him. And, he, after that experience, he came back to me to for two or three other projects. And I did a little work for him but never as founding partner with because I knew his personality was not going to be suited. Even though he’s a great sales guy [who] can raise a lot of money, he may not be the right partner for me.
Doug Ross 8:20
So these are people that you come into contact with and they’re in your life in some way, and you have a chance to see them in different situations. So it’s really that sort of integrity part that you mentioned.
Glenn Suart 8:32
You worry about what matters to you. For some people, integrity may not be as important as other abilities. I think, you know, you got to decide what matters for you. What kind of people you want to be associated with, maybe they’re honorable, maybe they’re not honorable, maybe money is more important to you in certain ways. I’m not saying you have to have either / or, but you have to analyze all of the person and there’s going to be there’s going to be warts and blemishes. There’s no perfect person, but you got to decide who you want to work with. I like working with Sean, who’s about 10 years younger than I am because he is honorable, smart, [and has a] different skill set. He’s action oriented, like I’ve never seen before. That’s valuable. And I know that I add stuff. He hates doing spreadsheets and figuring out projections and stuff. But he knows I can handle it and I can explain it to him in a way that makes sense to him. So we work well together. And that really comes down to it if you could define a partner. It’s a hard thing and I’ve been looking for partners for a long time. It does not come easily. You’ve got to find the right situation the right person, but you know, I would trust him with my kids lives. I think right now that’s the kind of situation I’m in.
Doug Ross 9:41
Yeah, you’ve had that trench warfare you’ve been in with him and you’ve seen it so that really [is] a nice evolution in your journey with him.
Glenn Suart 9:51
I found him because I sort of advertised for him. You know, I’ve been finding people with opportunities hundreds of people I’ve seen a few or where I’ve got to a certain level in terms of a relationship. How do you think you find somebody you’re going to [fit with] if you’ve got a great idea and you want to do something with it? And you really should find some partners to work with. You can’t do it all on your own. Most people do not have that skill set. How do you go find out find somebody to partner with? Where would you go to date, at work?
Doug Ross 10:21
Hey, podcast listeners, we’re going to take a short break, now. If you’re enjoying the show, feel free to invite your friends. Remember to subscribe, and if you want to help spread the word, leave us a review on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast app. Each episode of conversations on startups focuses on a single topic. If you want to comment on something you’ve heard on the podcast or suggest a topic for us to cover in a future episode, send an email to go@todaysgreatidea.com or douglas@sparkclickgo.com. Glenn and I appreciate you and hope you find our uncut and unrehearsed stories, perspectives and tips helpful. Speaking of helpful stuff, let’s pick up where we left off.
I think it’s a great question. And my answer to it is really the following. I don’t think you should look under every rock, I have a sense that these folks are in your atmosphere for one reason or another. So a classic situation is people are working together at Corporation x, let’s say. And they see a market that’s out there, maybe there’s some technology that company has. But it’s it’s not a big enough market for that company, and you and your co worker who you have come to know and maybe has a different skill set, to your point which I think is absolutely critical, find it interesting enough and think, hey, maybe we could spin this off, or leave the company and develop something else for a need that you’ve seen in the marketplace. But to your question of where to find these people, I think they’re around you in some way or another. Another example I would raise would be, you know, let’s say you’ve got a hobby interest that could potentially turn into a business. Okay, where do you go for those? Certain meetups, there’s meetups, for a lot of different topics, pretty much anything you can think of. So if you’ve got / if you’re going to meetups clubs, any of those sorts of things, social groups, I think that could be another place that you could find a partner. So those would be a couple. And the reason I say that I think these are people that are in your orbit some way is one because you’ve got an interest that’s maybe common with them, and if you do the opposite, which is advertising for this is, in my experience, which may be different from yours, and I’ve been part of these before I’ve advertised for co founders, there are founder, not surprising founder…essentially dating apps and platforms that you can go on to try and find somebody and I just haven’t seen a lot of success coming that way. More likely to be someone you went to school with, someone you work with, someone you know in your family or extended family, I think.
Glenn Suart 13:12
I think you need to have some, those are all exactly the kind of points you’re talking about. You need to have some passion idea to share, and that’s going to hold the glue together and you have to respect each other. I got a story, I can share it, you know, so you have to guess who it is, you know, and but it’s not so much about technology, or it’s about a team of guys. Two guys, Jim and Marvin. Jim is a songwriter and Marvin was an actor and they loved performing Jim’s songs and they came up with an idea for an album and they thought it was really different, theatrical, and they pitched it year after year to several record companies. Everyone rejected their idea. And the fact is Marvin could have gone off and done some other stuff, which he did. Jim could have done some other stuff but together the glue that held him was his vision. And they kept going and they got in front of Clive Davis who’s a very famous music industry producer legend guy who found / discovered Bruce Springsteen, etc. And Davis said that Jim knew nothing about writing music and [said to] Marvin, actors don’t sing and so they basically said to Clive, you know, well to that and they eventually got in front of Todd Rundgren and Todd Rundgren basically said, you know, this is pretty good stuff. And he got a small Cleveland record album label to do their album.
Din 14:37
You’re listening to conversations on startups with Doug and Glenn. Thanks for joining us. Let’s get back to the show.
Glenn Suart 14:47
The album that they create is one of the most iconic and best selling albums of all time. 43 million copies sold 200,000 copies sold every year because they had a vision and they have a great founding partnership. You know what I’m talking about which album?
Doug Ross 15:01
I should I’m embarrassed to say I don’t. I could guess.
Glenn Suart 15:05
It’s Jim Steinman and Marvin Lee Aday. But of course, Marvin stage name is meatloaf. And we’re talking about that other Hell. And if, you know, exactly [it was] very theatrical. It was a different take on music. And it worked. Because the two of them as founding partners were committed to each other and to the concept. That’s what you need to get going. And so you need a partner you trust, and they found each other because Marvin liked Jim’s music – it was that simple. So anyway, it’s a bit of a struggle. This is it happens every day in business, you need a partner, because one day you might not be feeling up and you need somebody else to lift you up. And that’s why having a partner is a good thing.
Doug Ross 15:56
Think it’s, I think it is essential. You know, I love these examples from music. In fact, I talked about a lot in my book as well – SPARK CLICK GO – from music, because I think it’s a good analogy to business. You’ve got these egos in the room, and things change over time. And then the other reason I love these examples is a lot of them are public so people can see them. See what happens. But I had a question for you, Glenn. Because so far, we’ve mostly talked about one partner that you go into business with. So that’s two people. What do you think is the optimum number / optimal number of partners? Is it in fact two people? What about three? Four? What about being a solopreneur? What are your thoughts on the ideal numbers?
Glenn Suart 16:47
I think very few people very few can be a solo entrepreneur, you know, you’re talking Steve Jobs of the world in the sense that they never they couldn’t be couldn’t build Apple without all of the support. And he was a bit of a one man show and to do certain things, [but…]
Doug Ross 17:03
He might have a technical guy, no, absolutely needed Wozniak, but on the [ideal number]?
Glenn Suart 17:07
Woz, right? So you have, you know, you need somebody with different skill sets to make sense, I find that when you hear about these projects, with three or four people that started it invariably goes back to one or two to be the leaders as it were.
Doug Ross 17:23
That’s the story of The Beatles right there, in my view.
Glenn Suart 17:27
There you go. And, you know, it’s the same thing with a lot of musical groups as well, that you’re absolutely right, that they need, you need somebody to be the front person to sort of take the brunt of it, per se, but they can’t do the business without the support team. And and I don’t mean support team just like support. I mean, it’s uh, you know, the other partners take care of stuff, but they have to be involved. But you also the more people you have, the more relationships that have to be managed. So and then if three is an issue becomes like a personal kind of situation. So I always think that two main collaborators – collaborators working together is probably the optimal number. That’s my feeling. And that can be a husband and a wife, or spouse and spouse, though that can be hard. That’s a whole other topic as to how to do a project when you’re married.
Doug Ross 18:17
Right [that] brings up a lot of other issues, and you’ve got all your eggs in one basket, very much, so many things. But a couple things on that partnership: if you’re roommates, and you just have one other roommate, you always know if the other guy took out the trash or not, you don’t know that when you have more than two people. And I love your observation about the number of relationships multiplying, I would have to pull out my factorial knowledge to figure out how the relationships expand when you go to three or four partners. And that’s got to be one of the reasons it’s so difficult if you’re a partnership like we’ve described here. So it’s a shared vision, it’s different skills. It’s a commitment, it’s trust, and things, things that are important to you, you can hire other people early on. And this is another remark that Adam had mentioned – you can bring in staff beyond the initial partners as you get going. So for example, you need accounting to be handled, you can hire somebody to do that, a finance person, they don’t have to be necessarily a partner. And I think that’s a mistake that some teams can make. Everyone’s a partner and we’re going to need all of these skills and personalities for the entire lifecycle of the business, not necessarily the case. Love that observation.
Glenn Suart 19:41
And this is it. You’re absolutely right there too is that we for the cooler company. You know, there’s four of us at the moment, Sean and I as lead partners, but we have two other guys who proved their values so critically right away. They have options in the company that are significant because we need them. But there’s no doubt that Sean’s, the guy and I, I’m a right hand guy. You know, in that sense, we’re partners that works. And I challenge / all four of us challenge each other to do better, and it works. But we didn’t, we do not give the options just because they’re great guys. We wanted them to stick around, and they are critical. But you don’t give options to everybody. You don’t give equity to people right away, you don’t know, you say, you wouldn’t get married to somebody you just met yesterday, you need to know something about them first to see how they’re going to do. So I think if you’re a person out there thinking about starting a business, you have a vision, find a partner. And you know, you might take a while to find one. But they got to share the passion and the interest that’s critical to do whatever you need to do.
Doug Ross 20:47
Yeah, and I don’t think you can force it. I need a partner by next Wednesday, I don’t think is the best way to get one.
Glenn Suart 20:55
The more, the more people you talk to the better though, right? The more people you date, the closer you’ll get to figuring out what you want.
Doug Ross 21:02
I agree with that and start small with that person, if you can maybe say, Hey, I’ve got this project, I’ve got this idea, something like that. And you really get to know whether you want to go further with this person as as was the story Glenn you took us through at the beginning. So a multifaceted topic. You mentioned equity and how to divide it. And there’s lots of thinking on that. And we can make that a topic of another episode at another time. But I think we covered a lot today on partners, how to find them, what’s important. Some of our own experiences, and some stories out there in the popular culture – I really enjoyed this discussion. As always, I don’t know what to fully expect when we get into one of these important [topics].
Glenn Suart 21:49
There’s like a deep well of different subjects to talk about. So you know, if you’re listening to this, you have any ideas, please let us know that we definitely want to answer questions that people have because we want people with great ideas to move them forward.
Doug Ross 22:09
Conversations on Startups is a production of Glenn Suart and Douglas Ross. We hope you’re having fun listening, but mostly that you take action on your business idea. For more inspiration, visit our websites todaysgreatidea.com and sparkclickgo.com. Another episode of Conversations on Startups will drop soon or is already available to binge. Thanks for joining us and remember to subscribe and invite your friends. See you next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai